Psychologist Xian Zhao talks about using his own name in his research, going by the nickname “WTO,” and why pronouncing people’s names correctly is so important. You can find more of Xian's work on Google Scholar. You can find us on Instagram @namedroppingpod or send us an email at namedropping@defector.com. Namedropping is hosted by Giri Nathan and Samer Kalaf, and produced by Ozzy Llinas Goodman. Our editor is Justin Ellis, and our supervising producer is Alex Sujong Laughlin. Our production assistant is Jae Towle Vieira. Defector Media is a collectively owned, subscriber-based media company. If you love this podcast and want to support us, subscribe at defector.com.
Psychologist Xian Zhao talks about using his own name in his research, going by the nickname “WTO,” and why pronouncing people’s names correctly is so important. Episode transcript available here.
You can find more of Xian's work on Google Scholar. You can find us on Instagram @namedroppingpod or send us an email at namedropping@defector.com.
Namedropping is hosted by Giri Nathan and Samer Kalaf, and produced by Ozzy Llinas Goodman. Our editor is Justin Ellis, and our supervising producer is Alex Sujong Laughlin. Our production assistant is Jae Towle Vieira.
Defector Media is a collectively owned, subscriber-based media company. If you love this podcast and want to support us, subscribe at defector.com.
Xian: So when people don't care about how to pronounce my name, I somehow know that this may not be really a good environment for me. So I try to distance from that environment to somehow protect myself
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Giri Nathan: I'm Giri Nathan
Samer Kalaf: and I'm Samer Kalaf, and this is Namedropping, a show about changing your name to protect yourself.
Giri: In this episode, we talked to Xian Zhao.
Samer: When we were putting together research for the season, our producer Ozzy found this very interesting paper as part of Xian's research about names.
Giri: In one of his first papers, he emailed professors with either his real name, or with an American sounding nickname, Alex, and compared how many people responded.
Samer: We were also really interested in his paper, “Your Name Is Your Lifesaver,” where Xian tested how likely white Americans would be to save an Asian immigrant’s life. He found they were less likely to help an immigrant with an Asian name versus one with an anglicized name.
Giri: In another part of the experiment, he examined people's political beliefs about immigration. But he found that even people who supported multiculturalism were still less likely to help immigrants with Asian names.
Samer: I was always kind of in the back of my head wondering whether I would get a response when I was cold emailing somebody from the first time. So it's kind of interesting to see that there was a little bit of evidence toward the notion that Western people kind of tune out non western names.
Giri: But you'd rather somebody ignore you because your ideas or personality are bad, not because just your name is familiar to them
Samer: Yeah, I'd rather get a rejection sometimes because at least I would know that they read the email
Giri: Yeah
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Xian: So my first name is pronounced as Xian. And my last name is Zhao. My first name means significant, all standing, and last name doesn't have any meaning.
Samer: Do you think that you've kept the meaning of your name in mind as you've progressed through life?
Xian: I think so. And there is a coincidence that in psychology, we use statistics, and we always run a significant test. Significant always means my name, right? So, so it's quite interesting.
Giri: When you came to America, and you're surrounded by people who are not familiar with tonal languages, did you find that you would like simplify your name in a certain way? Did you try out a few different methods and then find a name that stuck for you?
Xian: Yeah, I think somehow I have to allow people to or I have to adjust my pronunciation, my name pronunciation, a little bit, to make it easier. For some time I feel weird because in China people call me with the tone, but here without the tone and it sounds different. So with with the tone is Xian and without the tone is Xian. So sometimes I feel I may have a different self while I'm in the US compared to while I'm in China, or among my Chinese friends in the US. If someone can really call me with with the tone, that really like triggers my authentic self I feel, something a little bit different, the real me, like that.
Giri: Where did you grow up? And then when did you move to the US?
Xian: So I grew up in northeastern China, quite close to North Korea. So I, I moved to the US in 10 years ago, 2013, right before my PhD. So while I was really young, like a child, I I don't, I didn't have any English name at all. So me and you, I was so privileged, the school was privileged to have a British native English speaker to teach us English. He was a good person, but somehow the students they started to adopt English name. Maybe student they feel that when you have an English name, you speak English in a more authentic way, maybe. So I rely in my class, they rely on having an English name at that time, but however I had this question wondering why? Why why should I have an English? Why I just don't why I don't have a strong rationale or explanation, reason. So I was like a rebel that I publicly resist to adopt the English name and that at that time China was trying to become a member of World Trade Organization, WTO. So it was a really salient topic on news newspaper, or really on TV. So I just adopted this name WTO, because it's not really an English name, and also shows my unwillingness to have an English name. So so I was called as WTO for about two years at that time.
Samer: Oh wow
Giri: If you're walking down the street, and someone called out WTO, do you think you would respond to that today?
Xian: No, I don't think so. Because they don't know that's my name. Right? They don't know. Only among my high school friends. Maybe they already forgot. That was years ago.
Samer: Yeah, that's, that's interesting, because I remember when I was taking high school, Spanish, everybody was supposed to pick a Spanish name. For some reason, I ended up as Sergio and never used it again. And I never really got anything out of it. But it was interesting. Like it felt like unnecessary immersion in a way
Giri: I do remember in French class in middle school, there were like accepted like conversions for most names like, John would be Jean. Obviously, for being a child of Indian immigrants, there wasn't going to be like a quick and easy like, French equivalent. So they just had me choose from whatever name started with G that I liked. So I liked Gil. So I went with that. One of my friends still calls me that sometimes. But do you think that was probably the first time that you can recall having these kinds of critical thoughts about names and the function that they play in society?
Xian: Yeah. Yeah. That was my first time. And then when I was a law student in Chinese college, my younger cousin moved to the US. And I called him once, and I called my aunt, his mom several times. And his mom starting to refer him as Jason. Who, who, who is Jason? I don't know a Jason. So he started to use the name Jason and my aunt started to use the name Susan. So after the move to the US. So that probably the second time I realized, okay, you have to make some changes when you move to the US.
Giri: Interesting. And did you at that point, did you feel like you had a strategy for how you're going to approach your name?
Xian: No, I still, I was still not sure. And after I moved to the US, I met with my cousin, I stayed with my cousin. And I met his friend, all of them, all of them, they have English name. They were all like very young immigrants. So they started to use English since they arrived in the US. And not just my aunt, like my aunt's coworkers, she's a masseuse working in Los Angeles. Like all her coworkers, they all go by English name. None of them using Chinese name. British, I can partially understand because, like, massage the business, you have to make it easier for customers, otherwise, you cannot make money. So that part I understand. But my cousin's part, I still don't really understand because he went to a school, most of the students, they are Asian immigrants. And I think most of them, they give up their original last name and adopt English name, which is what's really interesting, I feel. So that was the second time. And then after I moved to the, to Kansas. So in my first meeting with my PhD advisor, Monica Biernat, I asked her, do you think I need that need to have an English name? And she's like, No, no, you don't have to, and people can learn. And she really meant did it, like her pronunciation is very close to, like, being perfect.
Samer: Wow
Xian: And not just my advisor, all my friends, like I feel they're motivated to learn. And I'm also very open to teach them multiple times. I don't feel embarrassed. So it's not impossible to learn how to pronounce a foreign foreign name. It's, it's more about whether you're you want to, whether you're motivated to learn, whether you care about that person's feeling.
Samer: Yeah.
Giri: Do you think that conversation with your advisor was kind of the moment when your your sort of personal interest in names and your professional interest in social psychology sort of came together?
Xian: Yeah, since that conversation, I started to think about this, because I am interested in peace and conflict and intergroup relations, the relationship between different culture, different groups, so I started I started to wonder maybe this is a good hobby to do some research. So and this is about a foreigner's relationship with the local people, and why the local people expect them to give up their original names. Some, it's kind of assimilation expectation. And then for for individual, whether they want to be assimilated. So I'm interested in this kind of interaction and decided to do some research later on.
Giri: So you had this really positive experience with your advisor being very respectful of your pronunciation of your name. But did you have any other memorable experience at the time of people mispronouncing your name?
Xian: Yeah, always, always. [laughs] The worst case was I was a teaching assistant for the department chair. At that time, she she moved away. So but at that time, she was a chair, and she was teaching a class. I think it's funny, even right before that class, I show her how to pronounce my name. And then, since that very first class, she—I think she somehow she forgot to pronounce correctly. And until the end of the semester, she called me Jiang or Rung, something like a French name or something. Not really Chinese, not English, something really really fancy. And the students, they started to memorize me by that name. Oh, that was funny, though, for that semester.
Giri: I know you're very invested in getting people to pronounce names correctly, and could you talk more generally about why that's an important mission for you?
Xian: Yeah, so I'm sure you and also the audience are probably familiar with the concept of microaggression, which is trivial, small, commonplace daily behavior that make people, especially people from marginalized group, they don't feel belonging, and not being able to correctly pronounce someone's name, not in your acceptable way, that could be seen as a form of microaggression, which shows, signals that people don't like you, don't really care about you. And correctly pronouncing someone's name in acceptable way, is actually a microaffiliative behavior, which is also daily commonplace behavior, but signals your inclusion, you are welcome to that person. And that's important. That's shows people, people that are people in this environment respect you, they want you to be here. They, they, they want you to be to show your authentic self, they respect you. And there are very simple way to learn someone's name, like really small effort and practice. And maybe you ask that person, you really polite way to show you how to pronounce. That's enough. That's it.
Samer: Yeah. I feel like just asking them feels like it goes a long way. Because just in my experience, I would be more patient with someone—I mean, I'm not like, super impatient with people in general. But like I would be more patient if someone was just asking me and trying to learn, in that way. One of the papers that you've written is called "Welcome to the US, but change your name." And you use your own name as part of the research. How did you come up with idea for this experiment?
Xian: I had some bad experiences in academia, that people forgot my name, or forgot me in January, for example, when I apply for grant, they forgot me. Only when after I contact them, I asked them, Why haven't you announced the like grant result? And then they email me back saying that, sorry, I forgot to consider your application.
Samer: Yeah, so you felt like you were getting overlooked a little bit?
Xian: Exactly. So that's how I develop that idea. In a study in which I send out an email, using my real name, asking to meet with them for 15 minutes to talk about applying for graduate school. However, in one condition, I only mention my original name, Xian. Another condition is, mention my real name, but also told the faculty member that "you can call me by Alex, that's my English name"—that's the only difference. And I found that Xian only got 50% response rate. And Alex got 60% around, which means if I email 10 family member in the US, Alex will bring me one more chance. One more reply. So that matters.
Samer: Yeah. I'll say for myself, just I'm not an immigrant. Just I was born in the US, but my parents were, but I feel like I've had this thing where when I send emails to people, it's under my name, Samer Kalaf. And there are just sometimes where I have this like irrational fear that it's either gonna go to spam because of Google's filters or whatever, or they're just going to see it and kind of glaze over because like, oh, I don't know who this person is, like when I'm emailing somebody for the first time. And then when I send like the follow up email, almost always they're like, oh, this person's real, I should get back to them. And so when I was reading your studies, it kind of it wasn't like an exact one and one thing, but it was kind of like, alright, well, maybe there is some kind of difference where Samer Kalaf is emailing versus Samuel Whoever is emailing, so.
Giri: When you use your own name in a study like this, is it, do you tend to have like a emotional response aside from your academic interest in the subject?
Xian: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, somehow that shows my anger or disappointment to the environment. So I have myself somehow embedded or involved in the study. That's my identity.
Samer: I was just kind of curious about how Alex was assigned to you or came to you.
Xian: Yeah. So I, yeah, Alex is one of my friend's name, back in China. Right now he's doing his PhD in University of Maryland. So he goes by the name Alex. But we study the same, almost the same topic, like we both graduate from the same social psychology program in China. So we are both sensitive—I assume we are both sensitive to this issue. But I was surprised. Like he used the, the English name. So I use this Alex name in my study—somehow, I was trying to teach him or mock him a little bit. But I totally respect his choice. If he use Alex, that's his own choice. All my work is now to are seeing as the minorities, you should not anglicize your name, that's not the goal. But the goal is trying to build an inclusive environment, then people they have their freedom. The thing is, how can we build an environment, not forcing them to anglicize their name. The environment is more important than the individual.
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Giri: I think one thing that I've enjoyed reading your papers is that you have done a roundup also of all the previous research about names and their relationship with self esteem and well-being and a lot of sort of surprising relationships that we may not expect to find there. Can you tell me about some of the most interesting past research that you read and something I'd be surprised to learn?
Xian: Yeah, so the the finding you mentioned that anglicizing name actually predicts self esteem. Because only a correlational study is, there's no way I can say one is causing the other. But what I can say is somehow, maybe if you have a English name, that may produce some kind of identity confusion, or conflict in different situations, that person needs to switch their identity. So that's causing like an actual identity burden for them, and that may reduce self esteem. Another way to explain that was maybe people who have lower self esteem, they are more likely to assimilate, because they want to fit in, they want to make it easier for other people, and then they are more likely to anglicize their name. So we don't know the causal direction. But there are two potential explanations.
Samer: Got it.
Giri: One of the main reasons we wanted to talk to you was your paper that's called "Your Name is Your Lifesaver," where you look at how people's willingness to rescue others varied based on the names of the victims. How did you come up with the idea for this study?
Xian: So we developed or borrowed or adapted three emergent moral dilemma, some in which a target person needs to be saved by others. So if you're familiar with trolley problems, right. So, there is there are two railways and the trains coming you have to pull a lever to switch the train to kill one person or another five, and then we change that target person's name by having original Asian name, or anglicized Asian name. And then participant they have to they imagine themselves to be the person who have this opportunity or are able to save that person. So in that study, overall, we found that when people anglicize their name for immigrants, they anglicize their name, they are more likely to be saved, as compared to when they don't anglicize their name.
Samer: We saw that one of your findings was that those who supported multiculturalism were actually more likely to help Asian subjects with anglo names than Asian subjects with original names. Was that surprising to you?
Xian: NI was a little bit surprised, because that's also some kind of biases. So which means multiculturalism or assimilation, assimilation either may not be the ultimate ideology we want the host society to endorse. Something recently this scholar has been working on another ideology called polyculturalism, which is people of different cultural groups, they learn from each other. And not just like a static culture of different cultures, is always dynamic. We learn, we respond, like, for example, the Chinese American food in the US is very different from American food, but also very different from Chinese food in China. So that is one example of polyculturalism. That's something new, innovative, develop creative, all of the inspirations of different culture, that probably more promising for the future, I feel. But I'm not saying multiculturalism is totally wrong. No, multiculturalism has a lot of benefits.
Giri: Yeah, you're just showing some of the limitations of that ideology. And like, how can you evolve going forward, okay
Samer: I know these studies were.—ne was one study was published in 2017. And a couple others are in 2018. Have you noticed any changes for the better or worse in the years since, either through your own experiences or through the experiences of people you know?
Xian: My own experience remain the same, I feel somehow, but probably, probably, I guess, due to pandemic and the COVID-19 started in China. And this Asian hate started—has been growing, like, my friends, they really worried about going on street, they are not even sure whether they should pull down the mask or not wearing the mask, because either way people hate you. Or the people can find reason to hate you. So during that time, I feel maybe the name effect I would have found maybe saw the email or others the moral dilemma and that effect, could be enlarged during that time. But I'm not sure about now. Maybe it's getting smaller, maybe I don't know.
Samer: Overall, would you say your research has changed how would you you would approach certain situations in life?
Xian: I think so I think maybe compared to other people, I'm a little bit more sensitive to how people treat me. But this sensitivity is not biased, I think. I think it is legitimate or reasonable sensitivity, to care about how other people treat me and to understand. So when people cannot or don't care about how to pronounce my name, I somehow know that this may not be really a good environment for me. So I try to distance from that environment to somehow protect myself. So any kind of signals for of microaggression, I try to avoid that situation. If I can do something to make it better, I'll do something. If there's nothing I can do, as a newcomer to the environment, I just try to distance myself and try to maybe turn those ideas into research and try to educate the public instead of that small group of people.
Giri: Do you think your research has changed how you might approach like, let's say naming children in the future?
Xian: Yeah, that's a good question. So, so pro—I have seen other people's approaches. For example, my Arabic friend's. So he has, he had a daughter during the pandemic, asking what's the names like you prepare to name your daughter, and the all the options he came up with, those are easy to pronounce by English speakers first. And those are all original Arabic name. So he was trying to satisfy both sides. So that's his approach. I totally respect. There's no problem with that. My own approach, I think I'll probably name my kids with original Asian names only. And I don't care about how difficult to pronounce for people of other worlds, other languages. A reason is I think if I don't do this, it will be less likely it will see those original Asian names in the US, so I want to carry this burden somehow. So that's for the first name. And also I care about the last name. Last name, usually, we have the last last name foll—have the last name, following the father, the father's side. And that signals the male's power in the family, especially in China, like, we all have the family name. And when you are a boy, that totally means something different from if you cannot carry the family name. So somehow the family name signals the power of man within the family, so I also don't like that. So my goal is getting rid of the family name, only have original, authentic Asianic first name. And I live in Canada for four years. So I check Canadian policy that you can only have first name. But when you have to fill out your last name, you just copy your first name. So double it. So I think that's a good way to fix it.
Samer: That's interesting
Giri: That's interesting, yeah. I like your strategy of just like, you know, in terms of naming children, you can refuse to make these short term concessions so that you get this long term benefit in society.
Xian: And also, I want to say that I need to discuss this with my girlfriend before I really do anything. It's not just my own decision.
Samer: Noted.
Giri: Well, keep that in mind. Yeah.
Xian: Yeah, I think she will be hearing this podcast [laughs]
Giri: You talked about this a little bit with microaffiliations. But what kind of big changes do you think we would need to make as a society for Americans to stop being afraid or forgetful of names that they perceive as foreign?
Xian: Yeah, so the idea, this microaffiliation idea I try to advocate or promote, it's really from the psychological perspective, that focusing on how small environment like organizations or people or small group, how people can make changes, but I do believe it's not just a small environment or small organization, it's a whole system, it's a whole racist system in this society. Now, we should really reform, like big changes. That can deeply solve the problem. So my, my microaffiliation can solve some problem, I think, and promote an inclusive environment. But really the deep issue is the whole system, from the law, from the government, from everywhere in this system—that needs to be fixed.
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Giri: Thanks for listening to name dropping, you can find more of Xian's work on Google Scholar and the link to that is in the show notes. You can find us on Instagram @namedroppingpod or send us an email at namedropping@defector.com. Namedropping is hosted by me, Giri Nathan, and Samer Kalaf, and it's produced by Ozzy Llinas Goodman. Our editor is Justin Ellis and our supervising producer is Alex Sujong Laughlin. Our production assistant is Jae Towle Vieira. Thanks to editor-in-chief Tom Ley and the rest of the Defector staff. Defector media is a collectively-owned, subscriber-based media company. If you love this podcast and want to support us, subscribe at Defector.com.